OSINFO - Open Sources Information

Text of report by Qatari government-funded, pan-Arab news channel Al-Jazeera satellite TV on 5 May

["From Washington": A weekly feature, includes interviews with Imad Mustafa, the Syrian ambassador to Washington, and Ammar Abd-al-Hamid, Coordinator General of the Tharwah Project and head of the Tharwah Foundation in America, both (in succession) at the Washington studio, anchored by Abd-al-Rahim al-Fuqara - live.]

[Abd-al-Rahim Fuqara] David Foley, spokesman for the Near East desk at the US State Department, thank you. [Interview with Foley ends]

In a past interview with Al-Jazeera, the Syrian ambassador in Washington, Imad Mustafa, had directed stinging criticism at Washington's stand on this issue [Syria's alleged nuclear installation]. The Syrian ambassador -who also criticized reports that this issue has wrecked secret negotiations with the Israelis over the Golan Heights -denied there is any similarity between the way Americans received the issue of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq prior to its invasion and the way they received present accusations against Syria.

[Imad Mustafa] Of course the story is very ridiculous. However, we do not underestimate it. This is an [US] administration that shows a great measure of recklessness and the ability to fabricate and lie and inflict great damage on other nations as well as the American nation itself. This is not propaganda talk for the media, but the facts that are being experienced by the American people. We do not underrate this story. It is part of a system, and we consider the story as presented by the US Administration as another link in a series of continuous links which the US Administration uses against Syria at least since four years ago until the present time.

Of course there are two very basic differences between that period and this period. When the US Administration made its allegations at the time -despite the fact that there were those who doubted the allegations regarding Iraqi weapons of mass destruction -the US political establishment, generally speaking, had accepted this [the Bush] administration's and agreed to launching a war on Iraq. Now, both sections of the US political establishment, Democratic and Republican, are deeply dissatisfied because they realized that the US Administration lied to them and dragged them into a war that has become a quagmire of blood and destruction -blood and destruction in Iraq, and a great deal of blood and enormous losses in the United States. The war has destroyed Iraq and also wounded the national dignity of the United States. Of course the damage is unequal but it has occurred on both sides.

The difference is that from the moment the US Administration announced its fabricated story regarding the Syrian nuclear reactor there has been very deep dissatisfaction within both chambers of Congress -the House of Representatives and the Senate, congressmen and senators [last three words in English] -and within both of its parties, Republican and Democrat.

[Fuqara] Regardless of the criticism levelled by the Syrian Government at President George Bush's Administration in connection with this dossier by many Syrian officials, including yourself as Syrian ambassador, the issue of isolating Syria from Iran during this election period -the talk about a nuclear Iran, as we know a report was issued by the US intelligence service -has led to a retreat in the beating of the drums of war against Iran. Do you think the Americans believe that perhaps Syria could be an easier morsel than Iran in the election period?

[Mustafa] In the intensive meetings I held with a great number of US politicians in the past two or three days I concluded or sensed the following -and these are all indications, signs, and conclusions and are not irrefutable facts: Yes, the present US Government is very dissatisfied because it lost the momentum of determination to launch a war or an aggression against Iran, and because of the absence of a political public opinion in the United States that defends such a war. This administration believes -and this is an analysis and not a definitive assertion -that it can revert to increasing the momentum of beating the rums of war if it suddenly declares there is a new nuclear crisis in our region, and it then places us together, we the states of the axis of evil, the rogue states, and so it comes up and announces to the American people a story whose gist is that there is a great danger in that region: the rogue and evil states, such as Syria and Iran, are acquiring nuclear weapons, and the good, democratic, and angelic state, Israel, is in great danger and we must do something to save Israel from the evil of those rogue states. Such reckless impetuosity did not [changes thought] It astonishes me that sometimes my enemy is so naive, superficial, and stupid.

They have not planned well for this matter. We are now in Syria watching how this new story will collapse under two kinds of blows: internal blows and external blows, in the sense that the media establishment, the legislative establishment, the political establishment, and the US intelligence establishment within the United States have begun to deal blows to this story, and such blows are escalating. You can monitor my words in the near future. Voices have begun to rise -they are still few at present, but they are rising steadily, and they are very clearly and strongly casting doubts on this story. There are also external blows. In the past three days I quickly monitored scores of articles published by experts in nuclear technology from various states in Western Europe and the United States who have begun to analyse why this story is silly and farcical and why -in technical and precise terms -such a story does not meet the minimum standards of credibility.

[Fuqara] In the light of such tension, the issue of the Golan Heights and the reports about contacts between the Israelis and Syrians to reach agreement on this matter, do we conclude from what you are saying that this dossier has been closed - and buried -at any rate for an indefinite period?

[Mustafa] The dossier did not exist in the first place, so that we can say it is closed and buried. Syria has a clear and declared stand, and we do not hesitate about it. We are members of the Arab peace initiative, and we believe that peaceful talks that lead to regaining the legitimate rights of the Palestinian people and to Syria and Lebanon regaining their occupied territories are the only path to a just and comprehensive peace in the region. As Syria says publicly we do not object to the resumption of peace talks that lead to the establishment of a just and comprehensive peace. We believe it is ridiculous and laughable that some Arabs believe stories published by the Israelis without pausing to consider, such as that Syrian-Israeli talks are being held in secret. Why should we hold talks in secret when we say publicly that we do not object to the resumption of serious and open peace talks in accordance with the [1991] Madrid [conference] terms of reference and international legality?

Of course, the reason is very simple. Whenever Israel wants to extort - and exert pressure on - the Palestinian negotiator to frighten him so that he desists from grumbling and complaining that Israel is not giving him anything, and when at the same time it is talking to him it continues to build settlements and persists in its massacres and killings and destruction of the Palestinian people, Israel frightens the negotiator and says to him: Beware, beware, we can sell you at any moment. We are now negotiating in secret with Syria.

[Fuqara] Another aspect of the pressure and the tension with regard to Syria is the aspect of the Syrian opposition and its activities here in Washington. You have said there is no similarity between Syria's case and the Iraqi case prior to the invasion of Iraq. However, perhaps with the Syrian government caught between the hammer of US pressure and the anvil of opposition pressure - and the opposition's activities here in America provides one of the aspects of such similarity -do you take the activities of the Syrian opposition here in Washington seriously?

[Mustafa] I must be very, very truthful with you. Is there an opposition in Syria? Of course there is. There is an opposition within every country in the world without exception. Is the clique of mercenaries who knock on the doors of the Congress, the US State Department, the National Security Council, and Elliott Abrams [US Deputy National Security Adviser for Global Democracy Strategy] here in the hope of getting a handful of US dollars considered mercenary [presumably he means "an opposition"]? That is an insult to the Syrian opposition. Are they considered an opposition? No, they are not considered an opposition. Even the Syrian opposition -with which I differ -does not accept to stoop so low. Here in the United States the Americans call them in English Chalabi and wine [nabidh] [metaphor for seekers of free cheese and wine]. They dream of one day attaining the position which the Iraqi opposition had reached when it was seeking to earn a living at the doors of AIPAC [American Israel Public Affairs Committee], the US National Security Council, the office of US Vice President Dick Cheney, and other US establishments. There is nothing called Syrian opposition in the United States. There is a group of persons who believe they can achieve some material and personal gains if they shout as loudly as they can in the presence of Iliana (Rosewetmann) and Elliott Abrams that they want to topple the Syrian regime and replace it with a regime "friendly" to the United States and Israel. I think that Iliana (Rosewetmann), Elliott Abrams, and those of their ilk like to have such people and they use them.

[Fuqara] Let me relay to you some of what the Syrian opposition says -

[Mustafa, interrupting] The mercenaries, not the opposition.

[Fuqara] At any rate those groups which are active at present.

[Mustafa] Yes, the mercenaries.

[Fuqara] Call them what you will. Those groups that are active in Washington and that have met with congressmen. They say the Syrian Government has arrested many of the leaders of the Damascus Declaration in December 2007. Those groups say they are launching a media campaign to acquaint the Arab and Western worlds with what they call human rights violations in Syria. They say more than that. They say that just as the Syrian regime has isolated them within Syria they want to isolate it abroad. What is your view?

[Mustafa] I am pleased with the way you phrase the assertion. I accept that the Arab viewer and listener now knows that this clique -which I call mercenary and not an opposition -comes to the Congress and meet with leading Zionist congressmen and then they go to Elliott Abrams and Dick Cheney and say to them, help us to isolate Syria or to isolate the Syrian government. I believe Arab public opinion and world public opinion, and even US public opinion -there is very little reaction to such assertions. They are very much exposed, and I do not want to waste time and effort in explaining what the action of those people means for fateful issues connected with the homeland -the homeland that is being slaughtered in Iraq, Lebanon, and Palestine. There are unparalleled big plots and incredibly strong pressure is being exerted on what they call their homeland, Syria. I think the Arab viewer can judge their behaviour by himself.

[Fuqara] Ambassador, I have one last point. In view of the stands taken by the Bush Administration, and in view of the media coverage given to the Syrian dossier here in the United States, do you believe that Syria's argument -as you described it now -is more capable of convincing US public opinion of the correctness of Syria's stand or the Syrian government's stand than those groups which are active in the United States are capable of convincing US public opinion of the correctness of their stands towards the Syrian government?

[Mustafa] Fortunately, US public opinion has gone through the experience of Chalabi and those of his ilk in the past and it was deeply shocked. There is a very deep shock among the American people as a result of the way by which they were dragged to the quagmire of blood in Iraq. Now the American people view those mercenaries who call themselves an opposition -and I insist on differentiating between an opposition and mercenaries -with profound disdain that could be greater than the disdain which I feel or the ordinary Syrian citizen feels towards such people.

[Fuqara] The Syrian ambassador in Washington, Imad Mustafa. The response of the Damascus Declaration groups will come after the break.

Welcome to the third part [first part was interview with Foley] of "From Washington." Syrian groups that describe themselves as in opposition to the Syrian regime and come under the canopy of the Damascus Declaration held a series of meetings in Washington last week. One of those meetings was held in the Congress. We are now joined by Ammar Abd-al-Hamid, Coordinator General of the Tharwah [Wealth] Project and head of the Tharwah Foundation in America. Mr Abd-al-Hamid, why did you visit Washington?

[Abd-al-Hamid] To present the issue of human rights and the serious deterioration in human rights conditions in Syria to the US Congress, in order to obtain Congress's support and backing for our just demands for the freeing of all political prisoners and allowing the opposition to operate freely in Syria.

[Fuqara] Why do you focus on Congress specifically?

[Abd-al-Hamid] Because the laws are made by Congress, and because we want through such contacts to have influence on both Republicans and Democrats and on any future US administration be it Republican or Democrat.

[Fuqara] What was the result of those meetings?

[Abd-al-Hamid] Actually they were very positive. We found a great deal of acceptance and support for our demands in Congress, by both Republicans and Democrats, especially as our demands were natural. We did not say "liberate us from Al-Asad's tyranny" or anything of the sort, but we said we want any dialogue you hold with the Al-Asad regime to be conditional on a real and tangible improvement in human rights issues in Syria. Our call for the release of prisoners held because of their views - especially the Damascus Declaration prisoners -was clear. However, we did not confine our demand to the Damascus Declaration prisoners for we wanted the release of all political detainees and the complete closure of that dossier, because it is inhuman and unacceptable for it to continue at this time in Syria. We need all the capabilities that exist in the arena to work on building the homeland, especially in the present difficult economic conditions.

However, very regrettably, Al-Asad's regime continues to object in this matter and to exert all kinds of pressure on all those who oppose its views and it arrests and exiles them. At the same time the regime's policies are leading us to the brink of the abyss and unsafe confrontations with the international community. Its internal policies lead to the fragmentation of Syrian society as we can see at present in Syria where corruption has become so rampant that the Syrian citizen cannot even find a loaf of bread.

[Fuqara] In order to be precise, are you saying that your demands at those meetings that were held in Congress do not aim to change the regime in Syria but aim to change the Syrian regime's policies?

[Abd-al-Hamid] Yes, changing the regime is a matter for the Syrian people. We operate by exerting popular pressure on the regime so that it changes its policies. We seek to start the political process so that we can bring about change from within through elections and free and genuine referenda, and not through military change imposed from outside or even economic pressure exerted from outside. Change is the responsibility of the Syrian people. We have learnt from the Iraqi experience. The lesson was clear: Any change that comes from the outside will lead to disasters. However, that does not prevent the existence of external diplomatic pressure on the regime by putting conditions for dialogue and for any normalization of relations between the Syrian regime and the international community. Such conditions should prescribe respect for human rights, the freedom of expression, and the release of political detainees.

Thus it is a clear manoeuvre for us. Our talk in this regard is clear. Yes, as I heard the ambassador say a few moments ago they can distort such talk and it is their insistence on distorting what we say and on talking in this manner that implies disregard for us which makes the matter so aggravated. That makes us insist more and more on our stand. We cannot act in the same dirty way by which the regime deals with us, but we must act using the same internationally known and recognized methods by communicating with the international community and its leaders in order to put forward our cause and so that our cause always remains alive in the arena every time this regime talks to any person in the international community.

[Fuqara] During our interview with the Syrian ambassador he -as you heard -described you as mercenaries. Such descriptions are made in the light of the relations that existed between the United States and some sections of the Iraqi opposition abroad prior to the invasion. Do you fear that the Arab World could be less sympathetic to you than the Americans for instance?

[Abd-al-Hamid] Arab sympathy did not yield for us any positive results in the past so that we slay ourselves at the altar of Arab sympathy. There are many assertions and many accusations, and such assertions are no longer of importance to us in the opposition. We are working. They say and they accuse and they persecute, but we are working seriously. The Syrian opposition is no longer weak as it was some years ago. It is now working with a clear institutional method. When we held elections within the framework of the Damascus Declaration we did not form a government-in-exile, but there were elections and we formed a secretariat inside the throbbing heart of Syria. We knew very well that the matter will lead to arrests, but there was a premeditated decision that such a risk is necessary because we wanted to give the international community a clear and big picture that we are committed to the political process and the peaceful democratic course and to working from within Syria and not from outside. After the Damascus Declaration group took such action we now have the opportunity to convey a clear message when we talk to the international community, congressmen, members of the US Administration, or any person. There are persons who we can say are the real leaders who at least represent the opposition.

[Fuqara] Ammar Abd-al-Hamid, Coordinator General of the Al-Tharwah Project and head of the Al-Tharwah Foundation in America, thank you for participating in this programme.

Source: Al-Jazeera TV, Doha, in Arabic 1930 gmt 5 May 08